I always thought the things he taught stood on their own without having to throw in a torture/murder redeeming mankind and a 3 day later miracle rising from the dead.
No, I really don't, but I wasn't raised with it, and I expect that may be why I can accept the meat of the doctrine, but not understand the rest of it at all.
Not just that he was tortured, but that his dad thought it was necessary for his son to be tortured. From what I have seen Jesus was a nice guy, can't say the same for some of his so called "followers" (the majority of them are nice people)
Absolutely. Implicit in the whole thing is the doctrine of Original Sin, as repellent and controlling a bit of mind-gamesmanship as has ever been thought up.
The real story behind this is clear to see for anyone with an open mind and without christian indoctrination.
Jesus was a preacher whose message appealed to many, but also upset many of those in authority, as it presented challenges to them and exposed their hypocrasy, this was especially true of many of the jewish religious leaders.
As a result of this, they conspired to get rid of him, preferably by his death, which they managed to do, in a convoluted method due to the Roman occupation and their control of civil laws and the religious leaders control of religious law.
His immediate followers were disheartened, but the early church kept going, wanting to spread the words of their dead leader. His brother James was a key figure in this early movement.
Then St Paul comes on the scene, possibly the greatest spin doctor in history.
He wants to take this obscure jewish cult and take it to the world. He quickly realises that a humble, dead, jewish preacher is not going to have much appeal to the Romans.
however, a miracle working, divine human, who rose from the dead, now there is a story to get peoples attention!
The Romans already had strong traditions of men becoming gods, and also had a liking for a 3 in 1 type god.
The rest, as they say, is history.
(Incidently there was quite a lot of argument between the Jerusalem church, who knew the truth, and had members who had been with Jesus, and the "new" international church, who they thought were beign a bit free with poetic licence, but of course the Paul version won out, and one they were established, they threw out all the books of the bible that did not agree with their version ... there were many more gospels that did not make it to the bible than the few that did. Some are lost forever, but some have been partially recovered ... interestign reading!)
Thanks for that, another little piece of th puzzle I did not know.
Whatever his ailments, he did a splendid job revamping the little cult into a worldwide success.
There were several other jewish (and non-jewish) cults around at the time, but they never amounted to much and were soon forgotten. The Jesus cult would almos certainly gone th same way, and been nothing more than a minor mention in obscure ancient histories at best, without Paul.
The world would be a different place, with a different history, if not for (it seems) a bloke having a fit on the roadside while travelling to damascus :))
No doubt. There are other turning points, as well. Have you read Steven Barnes' alternate history of the Americas, 'Lion' Blood" and "Zulu Heart"?
In it, the Muslim Empire of the Middle Ages does not collapse, and America is found and settled by them, much to the benefit of the Native Americans. Stevie knows his shit, so they are historically accurate as to methods of contact and settlement.
Interesting comments. I was raised as a Catholic and have a good grasp of Christian doctrine. The basic belief, that Christ was sent to earth by his father, who is, natch, the same person, to be killed to save "us" from our sins, is both absurd and nasty.
How any intelligent person, not suffering from a neurosis, can accept this tosh is beyond me. And at the same time believe that "god" is all-powerful and therefore could have "redeemed" his creatures by a stroke of the celestial pen.
Christians should not be allowed to get away with the assertion that theirs is, somehow, a "nice" religion.
Community votes are collected from you and other visitors to Ask500People. Independent votes are collected from visitors to hundreds of other websites around the world.
Sign Up or Login
Sorry, this data is only available to users with an account.
Loading...
Macabre.
I always thought the things he taught stood on their own without having to throw in a torture/murder redeeming mankind and a 3 day later miracle rising from the dead.
Then you don't understand.
No, I really don't, but I wasn't raised with it, and I expect that may be why I can accept the meat of the doctrine, but not understand the rest of it at all.
Actually I think she understands pretty well :)
So did the early church. Then the spin doctors took over (see my longer post below).
Why is it repellent that someone loved humanity so much that he gave his life and suffered torture?
Not just that he was tortured, but that his dad thought it was necessary for his son to be tortured. From what I have seen Jesus was a nice guy, can't say the same for some of his so called "followers" (the majority of them are nice people)
I don't think that aspect of it is repellent at all. I really don't get the "redeem" part though.
He was murdered by a dark alliance of the occupying power and the religious authorities.
Think how much more wisdom he could have passed on if he had lived to be an old man :(
This comment has been moderated down. (Show Comment)
Torture? Was that water boarding? How come the perpetrators weren't brought up and charged like you libs want to do to Dubya?
Absolutely. Implicit in the whole thing is the doctrine of Original Sin, as repellent and controlling a bit of mind-gamesmanship as has ever been thought up.
I totally agree. Something that makes it OK to drown babies is about as scary as you can get!
The real story behind this is clear to see for anyone with an open mind and without christian indoctrination.
Jesus was a preacher whose message appealed to many, but also upset many of those in authority, as it presented challenges to them and exposed their hypocrasy, this was especially true of many of the jewish religious leaders.
As a result of this, they conspired to get rid of him, preferably by his death, which they managed to do, in a convoluted method due to the Roman occupation and their control of civil laws and the religious leaders control of religious law.
His immediate followers were disheartened, but the early church kept going, wanting to spread the words of their dead leader. His brother James was a key figure in this early movement.
Then St Paul comes on the scene, possibly the greatest spin doctor in history.
He wants to take this obscure jewish cult and take it to the world. He quickly realises that a humble, dead, jewish preacher is not going to have much appeal to the Romans.
however, a miracle working, divine human, who rose from the dead, now there is a story to get peoples attention!
The Romans already had strong traditions of men becoming gods, and also had a liking for a 3 in 1 type god.
The rest, as they say, is history.
(Incidently there was quite a lot of argument between the Jerusalem church, who knew the truth, and had members who had been with Jesus, and the "new" international church, who they thought were beign a bit free with poetic licence, but of course the Paul version won out, and one they were established, they threw out all the books of the bible that did not agree with their version ... there were many more gospels that did not make it to the bible than the few that did. Some are lost forever, but some have been partially recovered ... interestign reading!)
In Paul's defense, he probably suffered from temporal lobe epilepsy, which is often associated with sudden and ecstatic religious experience.
Thanks for that, another little piece of th puzzle I did not know.
Whatever his ailments, he did a splendid job revamping the little cult into a worldwide success.
There were several other jewish (and non-jewish) cults around at the time, but they never amounted to much and were soon forgotten. The Jesus cult would almos certainly gone th same way, and been nothing more than a minor mention in obscure ancient histories at best, without Paul.
The world would be a different place, with a different history, if not for (it seems) a bloke having a fit on the roadside while travelling to damascus :))
No doubt. There are other turning points, as well. Have you read Steven Barnes' alternate history of the Americas, 'Lion' Blood" and "Zulu Heart"?
In it, the Muslim Empire of the Middle Ages does not collapse, and America is found and settled by them, much to the benefit of the Native Americans. Stevie knows his shit, so they are historically accurate as to methods of contact and settlement.
Interesting comments. I was raised as a Catholic and have a good grasp of Christian doctrine. The basic belief, that Christ was sent to earth by his father, who is, natch, the same person, to be killed to save "us" from our sins, is both absurd and nasty.
How any intelligent person, not suffering from a neurosis, can accept this tosh is beyond me. And at the same time believe that "god" is all-powerful and therefore could have "redeemed" his creatures by a stroke of the celestial pen.
Christians should not be allowed to get away with the assertion that theirs is, somehow, a "nice" religion.